BREAKING FREE FROM TOXIC RELATIONSHIPS: OVERCOMING BURNOUT AND HEALING AFTER BEING WITH A COVERT NARCISSIST w KATIE ROGERS

Do you know what covert narcissism, would you know how to spot it in your own relationship or support a friend who may be experiencing this kind of toxic relationship? If like me you had no idea what this was or what this experience is like today's episode is a must-listen, as I'm joined by Katie Rogers, a former lawyer turned wellness app creator, who shares her own journey from people-pleasing and burnout to self-empowerment and healing.

We dive deep into the complexities of codependency and its connection to burnout, discussing how traits like emotional responsibility and people-pleasing can make someone a prime target for manipulation. Katie opens up about her experience with covert narcissism, offering invaluable insights on recognizing red flags and finding the courage to break free from abusive relationships. We also explore the importance of setting boundaries and addressing childhood traumas to prevent high-functioning codependency and burnout.

In addition to our enlightening discussion on navigating narcissistic relationships, we explore how friends can offer support and understanding, the powerful role of transformative breathwork in trauma healing, and the importance of integrating joy and pleasure throughout the healing process. Don't miss this impactful conversation to learn from Katie as she shares her wisdom and experience on overcoming burnout and embracing a life of self-connection and empowerment.

CONNECT HERE

EP 22 on burnout tools : https://www.buzzsprout.com/1789887/episodes/9935639

Hannah IG: https://www.instagram.com/hannahkategarner/

Katies vlog diving deeper into her experience with narcissism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuwp3JGaKPw&t=363s

You can find out more about Katie’s coaching services and her app at myconnectedself.co.uk, or give her a follow on @connectedkatie (insta, TikTok)

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:25

Hello and welcome back to Empower Thigh Self podcast. I'm your host, hannah Garner, and today's episode I'm really excited to dive into, not because it's a nice topic but because it's an important one, and I am joined by a guest who has previously been on this podcast And so we started last year talking about burnout and her experience with burnout and how she kind of managed it and what that looked like for her. I'll make sure I link the episode in the show notes this episode 22. However, there's been a lot of evolution, there's been a lot of development and it was a conversation that we felt was really needed to be had, and we're going to be talking about a narcissistic relationship and therefore, just as a trigger warning, that is going to be something abuse and things like that that we talk about, but it's something that you know is really important, particularly because you know many of us are not even aware of what to look out for And many of us are experienced things potentially that could be narcissistic behavior and it can be very, very damaging, and so hopefully, with this episode, it's going to give you the opportunity to learn more, to look out for it, even if it's not yourself but for a friend, so you can support that person in a much better way. Because, you know, i didn't know a lot of what existed in that scenario And we're also going to be diving into burnout again and actually the evolution of that journey and so, and also how some of the kind of traits that were created for this kind of narcissist to take advantage of the relationship can also be very closely linked to burnout and how that can come about, and so hopefully, by us discussing this, it's going to be really useful for all of you.

Speaker 1: 3:09

So my guest is Katie Rogers and she is from My Connected Self. She described herself as a recovering people pleaser and former burnout queen who went from working miserably as a lawyer to breaking free from an abusive relationship and running her own wellness app focused around self connection and empowerment. Welcome, katie.

Speaker 2: 3:29

Hi, thank you so much for having me. It's good to be back.

Speaker 1: 3:33

I know, i know And you know this is going to be an important conversation for sure, and you know it's going to be a tough one, but I think it's really important to dive into it. So I think where to start is maybe just kind of giving yourself, giving a bit of background, just about yourself, letting the listeners know who maybe haven't listened to your first episode who you are, what you do, and we can kind of grow from there.

Speaker 2: 3:56

Yeah, sure. So I just said I'm Katie and I have been running my wellness app, my Connected Self, for around a year now. Before then I was doing other wellness stuff through a different company, but now I'm running it as an app And within that I do things like yoga, mindset, meditation, breath work. I do transformation, breath work coaching and I do life coaching, both one-to-one and group program. I know you mentioned about burnout And that's something I'm very, very passionate. I'm running a serious anti burnout movement at the moment And I have a group program coming up It starts on the 16th of July which helps people to go from burnout to breakthrough. So, yes, as you said, you know, burnout is something that we talked about a while ago And the evolution of that journey has grown so much through the experiences that I've had in learning about my abusive relationship and healing from it and realizing the links of those things that were actually enabling me to take on a lot more emotional labor and take on a lot more stress than I needed to, certainly, and led me to some pretty dark places.

Speaker 2: 5:04

So, yeah, as much as those things might not seem immediately connected, there really is a big link there, and I thought it was interesting when you said in the intro about how this isn't something many people know about. I was in the relationship. I had no idea that it was even an abusive relationship. I did not realize how it worked And actually, you know, going through this and thinking I don't think I don't think many people have an awareness of this, putting the vlog out there.

Speaker 2: 5:35

So for you guys listening, i also have a vlog on YouTube. You can have a look at my connected self. I put that vlog out there and the amount of women from across the world and men actually who have contacted me to say I have realized, through watching your vlog, the experience I've had. I now have the language to describe it. I was left in this position where I was so confused. Now I get it. Thank you for sharing And, yeah, it's a pretty crappy realization to come to our beyond this, but also that knowledge gives the empowerment for healing. So, yeah, i think it's really important to raise awareness.

Speaker 1: 6:12

Yeah, 100%, and that's why I wanted to have this conversation with you, because, just as background, me and Katie built our online friendship and have now met in person So. I have seen how this has impacted her from a personal perspective And it's not easy because just to give some background on covert narcissism covert basically means it's not obvious They don't display the same obvious in kind of characteristics that a narcissist might. And that's what makes it even more difficult and more dangerous, because the people around you are not aware of these behaviors.

Speaker 1: 6:50

They put up this perfect front, this perfect kind of image which then makes that person even more difficult to kind of be associated with. Such a thing, isn't it? And that's what I found the most tricky to understand when I was first doing my own research on this, because I wanted to make sure I kind of was clued up because personal experience is so powerful, but I also didn't want to be ignorant coming into the conversation, And it's scary how easy it is to isolate somebody in a situation, And I can't even begin to imagine how you felt when you had that realization, because actually it's not easy to spot from the outside.

Speaker 1: 7:33

And so, as I said, I'm hoping this conversation gives people the tools even if it's not you, just to be aware of that for your friends, because I know you really struggled from a support point of view because of this, because of it being so, i guess hidden And you know he was such a great guy And I'm sure you can all kind of probably relate to a situation, past or present, or with a friend, past or present, where you think actually what we're about to share does sound like it could be that. So I think, to start with, maybe do you want to just give people a bit of a background about how the situation played out, just so that they can kind of start understanding a bit more about what that looks like.

Speaker 2: 8:13

Yeah, sure, i mean, there's so much to unpack in what you just said. It's a topic that's so difficult to kind of compress and also do it in a way that really values the gravity of how serious this can be.

Speaker 2: 8:28

But, I'll do my best to do that. So, yeah, i suppose, speaking from my experience and you know, when I was in my relationship, like you say, people around you they don't, they don't see it. I didn't see it and I was in it, so I can appreciate how other people didn't see it as well. But I knew that towards the end of my relationship, certainly in the last kind of couple of years, I knew things weren't right. I didn't really know how. I knew I wasn't happy.

Speaker 2: 9:00

Some of the things that I thought were the reasons that I left him eventually was he had totally withdrawn affection from me. Now, the part of me that is, you know, very caring and compassionate, and I want to use my rational brain and think well, what is the reason for this? Because you know he's telling me he loves me so much, he finds me attractive, all of these things. So why is he incapable of being intimate with me? And trying to rationalize and give a reason for that, and you think, oh, no, maybe there's some trauma that's been triggered somewhere. And now this, and you know you come to it with love and compassion and think, oh, if I can love and heal this person, we'll have a great relationship And that in itself is dangerous because, you know, realizing now actually other people's emotions are not my responsibility to heal or to fix That's.

Speaker 2: 9:54

You know, one of the biggest lessons that's come out of this. But, yeah, the situation I, like I say I did not understand it at all. I did end up leaving that relationship And I left with nothing because, as part of so, as part of narcissistic abuse, often the narcissist will financially deplete you of everything, and that's really what happened. I was in this relationship And, yeah, i got absolutely financially rich. I left that with nothing. I also many of you know from the intro that I was a lawyer as well. I left that job and at the time I thought that was my decision And honestly, i don't regret it because I love what I do now so much.

Speaker 2: 10:42

But as part of the abuse, often the narcissist will put you in a position where you can't work or you don't work. You're isolated, you have no money, you have no control. You are completely under their spell and under their control and there is not a lot that you can do about it. That can go down a slippery slope pretty quickly and actually, now that I realise how that works and looking back on it, i realise how I got to that point without even noticing. So, yeah, i found the strength.

Speaker 2: 11:14

I've been doing a lot of work on my own self-worth and I knew that, even though everyone around me was telling me why are you leaving him? You have an amazing life, he's a great guy, he's a wonderful person. So I felt red for leaving him, but I knew that I had to do that and I got out of that situation and Hannah and I have spoken about this, but came to some pretty dark places and actually then I came across a reel on Instagram that described my relationship almost exactly to the point where I listened to it and I didn't even realise that reel was about COVID narcissism.

Speaker 2: 11:50

Actually it was just like first of all they meet you and then this happens. This happens, and then it gets to the point of the devaluation part of the narcissistic cycle, and I'll go over that cycle as well in a second. But in my mind I was so blind to all of this that was happening that I thought, wow, i guess I go out of that relationship at the right time, before the devaluation came in, because the rest of this stuff sounds spot on.

Speaker 1: 12:16

I'm lucky that I didn't have to go through that.

Speaker 2: 12:19

And then I sat and journaled on it because I thought, actually this is so spot on to my experience maybe my subconscious is hiding this stuff from me because it's too painful to look at and I sat and journaled on it and the first couple of points were a bit difficult for me to even think about, and then I ended up writing four pages of ways in which he had devalued me, criticised me, isolated me, yeah, financially abused me, and I realised then what had happened. And then that's when my journey into learning about COVID narcissism and also learning about myself and why that situation had landed for me to then be able to have an education to do the healing work.

Speaker 1: 13:09

Yeah, and I think what's really important to note here is there are going to be in some instances, you know, in all relationships we can have situations where we say things that might devalue someone and it's not very nice. That's very different to the intentional, targeted attack of a narcissist. So I just want to make that clear, because sometimes when we hear things on Instagram, we can be like and I know this has happened to me for symptoms like oh, that sounds like me, like I some of the symptoms for ADHD, for example, exactly like me. For some, that is going to be 100% true. For others it's just going to be similar. I just want to distinguish not, this is a whole game plan and for you it was a really serious situation. That, like you said, was not you know. Thank goodness you're able to get out of it. But I remember our conversation beforehand before we've, like, i even knew about this, you even knew about what it was when you were kind of saying I'm having a difficult time.

Speaker 1: 14:04

I want to. You know I want to leave my partner, but it was still very much a situation where you were feeling really bad because you didn't want to ruin his life.

Speaker 1: 14:13

You were very much you know, knowing you needed to take this step. It was very confusing, it was very unsettling, but you were very much still thinking about his feelings, how to make sure he was okay, and it was all about that versus the impact on you. And so I think, just to remind people, it is obviously of a really serious nature and it's not always easy, like you said, to admit that to yourself, because you often, like you say, our brain probably and our body goes into a mechanism of protection so it tries to avoid those feelings as much as possible because it's so heavy and it's so hard. And I definitely think, for more detail that you go into I'll make sure the vlog that was shared on YouTube with Katie with more details exactly if you're thinking any of this resonates, you can go and you know, watch that to have get a bit more in depth. You know situation about that because you share some really great resources as part of the video and they explain it better by experts. But I think what's really important is the fact that, because that would be one of my first questions is how could you not even know that was happening to you?

Speaker 1: 15:22

Yeah, often, i think, particularly women, obviously this, of course, this can happen to men, but we have a lot of people pleasing tendencies. We have a lot, of, a lot of the time, many of us are empaths and a lot of the time, especially as women, you know, we try and be the let me heal that person, let me help that person, let me almost be the mother, because they're clearly going through something terrible. And that can be the case, and it not be somebody who's a narcissist. It can just be a bad relationship. But those are the kind of things I'm sure and you can go into more detail where they will use that as a perfect tool to basically penetrate you in order to get what they need from you. Right, that's my understanding. They use those kind of amazing qualities to target you as an individual because you basically are easier to manipulate, potentially, than maybe somebody who hasn't got those qualities. So how did that look like for you? Because I think, like you say, some of that does link to burnout. What does that look like?

Speaker 2: 16:28

Yeah, absolutely, and I totally agree with what you say about you know, there is no perfect relationship, because we are all humans, which means that we all show up to the table with some degree of trauma, with a different perception on the world because of our experiences, because of what we've learned from our parents and in school and everything else, the situations that we've been through we all will have red flags to some degree. Right, and like these, these character traits, which I now realize are trauma responses, are things that you know made me the kind of perfect target for this type of abuse. There is definitely a specific sort of person that a master's will look like to use as their supply. And, yeah, those trauma responses or character traits also make you the perfect person who is going to take on so much that you're going to burn yourself out. And so one of those things is codependency, which I didn't really know much about, and again, this was something about myself that I actually thought was a really great quality to have. Now I look at it and realize how toxic it is.

Speaker 2: 17:38

This is one of the red flags that I was showing up to the table with that I didn't have the self-awareness to really understand And codependency isn't really. When you first hear that word you might think, oh, that person is dependent on somebody else, they need to always ask for somebody's advice or always ask for somebody's help, and actually it's not that at all. If you're kind of high functioning codependent, you feel extremely responsible for a lot of stuff, which again you can see how this is linked to burnout, because you take on personal responsibility beyond that that you're actually required to do So in a working time. You know you might feel a huge responsibility for your clients in motion, or you may feel a huge responsibility to push something over the line that maybe isn't even in your field.

Speaker 2: 18:28

But, how this shows up in a relationship. And, like you say, when I left my ex, i was very much focused around how he felt. I felt so much guilt and shame And I thought I'd ruined his life, which is the ironic thing, because, you know, when I now understand the damage he did to me, it is a different level to you know where I even thought I was at, because when you're dealing with break-up from this type of situation, it's not just a normal break-up. You have to realise that actually your whole perception on reality was completely off, and that is a hard realisation to come to. To know that the person that you thought you loved, that you know I spent six years with him And to realise he's not even a real person, that it was all a con, which is essentially how this works.

Speaker 2: 19:18

So, yeah, high functioning codependency is one of those trauma responses where I felt a huge amount of personal responsibility for his emotion. And in that relationship I was so concerned with oh my gosh, let me make you feel better, you know. Oh, he's so depressed, let me cheer you up. That's my responsibility that I was self-abandoning completely.

Speaker 1: 19:41

Yeah, your needs, your emotions.

Speaker 2: 19:44

Yeah, i was showing up, as just you know. Don't worry about me, i haven't got any needs. How's everyone else doing? Is everyone else okay? What can I do? I can't play, which, yeah, in a relationship is heavy. You're taking on a lot more emotional work that you need to And also that translates into work as well.

Speaker 1: 20:02

But he would play on that, wouldn't he? in terms of the emotions, because when something went wrong, he would be hysterical, and that's how he would divert your, your kind of your thoughts and your emotions onto him, because he would take advantage of that by being hysterical, crying. And also, when he did something wrong, it was a distraction tool And that's you know for somebody.

Speaker 1: 20:27

if you see a loved one who appears to be in pain or appears to be sad, particularly as an empath that can be really hard to look past. You can't think straight, you can't rationalize, because your natural response would be to go to oh my God, what have I done? How do I fix this?

Speaker 2: 20:45

Even if what?

Speaker 1: 20:45

they've done. You kind of forget about all that, that bad stuff they've just admitted to or not admitted to, but you're trying to, you know, get out of them. And it's a great diversion tool to stop you realizing what the depth of actually how impactful it is for you. And I think that's something to be kind of really mindful of when you're looking out for these things. Because I wouldn't know that if somebody's and it was, and you know, a lot of the time he probably wasn't depressed and he wasn't hysterical, he was, he was manipulation at his finest. And if you're not aware of that.

Speaker 1: 21:18

you know it's one thing. You're trying or being upset because you you know something bad has happened in a relationship. We all go through that. But if somebody's consistently getting hysterical when you call them up on their behavior, that is out of order to distract you. that's a bit of a red flag in now looking back Because, again, i wouldn't have known that had you not shared that experience, and I'm like wow.

Speaker 1: 21:42

I don't know that, it's never happened to me, but thinking about certain relationships that I know of friends, there's definitely one relationship where I can see that that was definitely going on And you know I would say we're going through a similar situation to you, and that's really crazy because, yeah, you. as an empath, your immediate response is oh my gosh, how do I help them?

Speaker 2: 22:06

Yeah, and that's the thing. So, like I say, i thought that was a nice quality about me, like, oh, somebody's upset, i can go in, i can fix them, i can heal them. How nice is it that I can write at the day and lift them up? It's not a nice quality. What I was actually doing and now I realize it and understand it more is that if someone you know shows up to me and yes, like you say, with an artist, all of this stuff, it was manipulation, it wasn't genuine. But in other situations, you know, i meet a friend and they're upset and I want to come in and be like let me fix you, let me heal you, That is not a nice quality. That is actually me saying, hey, i'm so fucking uncomfortable in your discomfort. Please can you change that so I can feel more comfortable. Let's change it together, let me fix that.

Speaker 2: 22:50

And it's actually very unhelpful. It's quite toxic really. And you know, allowing people to sit with their emotions, to show up exactly as they are and be like, hey look, i know you got this and you're having a hard time and that is valid You feel those things is a way more supportive and green flag behavior, certainly, than what I was doing. So, with that codependent kind of fixer attitude, it did open me up to abuse And, like you say, as an empath and for those of you who are unfamiliar with that term, an empath is somebody who you know not only do I feel my own emotions probably a lot more deeper than than other people might I also am hyper aware of how other people feel around me. If I walk into a room or feel the energy of that, and if I am like watching a film or something and I see that people are upset, i'll be upset. You know, if other people are crying with happiness, i'll cry with happiness and very susceptible to other people's emotions. And so, as a narcissist, a very easy way to manipulate is that, yeah, like you say, something comes up, you call them out on that behavior and then they'll suddenly be the most upset person in the world.

Speaker 2: 24:05

You feel dreadful because you think you've caused them all of this pain and upset And all of a sudden you're distracted from the issue at hand And your attention focus is to how can I make you feel better? I'm so sorry that I made you feel that way. And again, it's that self abandonment. And this is, you know, in the vlog I talked specifically about how, in one instance, he I was kind of quite close to finding out this stuff. I was looking through the bank accounts and thinking where is all my money going? How is this happening? blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2: 24:36

He starts putting on this big performance of tears, of crying, of playing with knives, and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, he's going to do something terrible, and I'm so distracted from the issue at hand. And so, you know, then my focus shifts to how can I protect him and help him that he ends up getting away with that. And then, all of a sudden, then it's onto something else And then I've forgotten about the situation. Then they love bomb you again And you think, oh well, you know, they do really love me, it's not. you know. I'm sure they have no real intention, this is probably just an accident. And you make excuses. Yeah, because your mind will do anything to distract you from the deaths of your soul. But your mind will also create the picture that you want to see.

Speaker 1: 25:23

Yeah. So yeah it's very easy to do, I guess, because when you're in pain, there is going to be this level of denial, because it's trying to protect you until you're able to fully remove yourself from the situation to see the depth of what's going on When you're actually in it.

Speaker 1: 25:40

I guess there's that level, that level of denial, because it is a protection mechanism And because you know it's one of those things that no matter, you know you're having to live through it.

Speaker 1: 25:53

So if you can't get out of the situation, how can you make it the easiest version of that bad situation that you can, so that it's livable? I guess and that's that's a really difficult situation to be in. And you mentioned about this devaluation process And I just would love for you to touch on that a little bit more, because I know for me, seeing the impact of that on you and how it could impact other people, it's really quite deep in terms of the after effects, of how that impacts you and your self perception and self image as an individual. And that's a really scary thing, because that's the part that takes a lot of healing, because you're having to undo all of this, these beliefs that have suddenly started to wire in your brain, that were fed to you for a very long time, that you weren't even aware of because it was very, you know, drip feeding until it was deeply ingrained in you as an individual.

Speaker 2: 26:54

Yeah, and this is the thing at the time, i would have thought I had this amazing relationship. I thought he was super supportive, super loving. I thought he was empowering me. I did not see any of this stuff. But yeah, so let's go through the cycle then of how this works.

Speaker 2: 27:12

It starts off with idealization. You know, he met me. He thought I was this angel. He told me about you know, it was like the moment I heard your voice, i just knew that I wanted to get to know you. He was like I just fell in love with your voice and all this stuff like very intense. But it totally fed into the trauma wounds that I had of feeling unlovable and feeling unworthy. And all of a sudden, this person comes in and they think I'm perfect and they put me up on this really high pedestal and they want to love me and they want to get to know me and it's flattering, it fed into my vulnerabilities for sure. They love Bombu.

Speaker 2: 27:51

You know he made these grand gestures. They buy you expensive gifts or they'll go and do something really big for you. And I'm like, wow, like I'm thinking, yeah, i've done all this work on myself and I want to attract this partner that treats me like how I want to be treated. And look at him, he's doing these amazing things. And then, of course, everyone around you is like, wow, what a great guy Isn't he amazing, is he doing all this stuff? And that's you know how they start to con not only you but the people around you who also think that they're amazing. So that then when you start thinking you know, i think I want to leave, and everyone's like don't leave him. He's amazing. And it's hard, especially when you're the sort of person who will give away your power to looking for external validation so that you feel like you've done the right thing. I had to really push to move beyond that. They mirror you. To give you an example of that So at the time when we met, i was vegan and now I'm vegetarian, but beyond the point, he became vegan as well.

Speaker 2: 28:51

You know, and not because I made him, because he's like I'm really interested in this, like tell me about it, let me learn. Actually, i'd love to try some vegan food, but yeah, i think I would really like to do this as well. And the people around me are like, wow, he's so under the thumb, like you made him go vegan, all this stuff And I'm thinking, wow, it sounds like I'm this really like pushy, like dominating, like person. Who's making him do all these things and making him have all these sacrifices. That I thought I was really shit, i thought was a dreadful person, because that's how other people made me feel. But really he was just mirroring me to the point where he has all the same interests as me. All the political views that I have he's the same. We're totally. We never argue in that way because we never we never disagree. He's always mirroring me and I didn't notice that.

Speaker 2: 29:43

You know when you, when you are with someone I suppose that in itself is you know, people were telling me oh, you don't give him space to disagree with you, and I thought that's not the case at all. Like I, you know, i am happy to have a balanced and respectful you know discussion with anyone. I have a whole ton of friends with different views to me and I don't need to be on the exact same page with everyone to appreciate them and value them in my life. That's really not the kind of person I am, but I did think how lucky am I that I found someone who is basically, you know, my soulmate, with such a good match. We agree on everything.

Speaker 2: 30:18

I didn't realize that was a manipulation tactic, because that it it gives this really strong bond between you where you feel like you have this really special connection and you know it's part of the con, it's part of the abuse. They future, fake you and then the devaluation starts to begin. Then, when they've done on that, they'll either discard you or then, you know, discard you. Either if you're no good as a supply anymore, they'll get rid of you forever, or they'll discard you. And then it's called hoovering, where they bring you back in and they start this cycle again. So when I talked about the kind of you know realizing, about the money, then you know then it's all that kind of making me feel really responsible that I'd upset him all this stuff and then hoovering me back in with starting the idealization and love bombing all of that stuff again to distract me and think that, okay, well, our relationship is back on track again. I don't need to raise this thing as an issue because he's trying.

Speaker 1: 31:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's making the effort, he's making the trying to make amends. He's giving you most likely feeding you the lies of, like, oh you know, i'll do this, i'll change that, i'll whatever to make you think, oh, they're doing the work too, when actually it's all a tactic to prey on your already vulnerable self by this point, because the thing is at the start when this happened.

Speaker 1: 31:42

Over time, i guess, slowly, without even realizing what becomes acceptable to you, expands in terms of the behavior they have towards you. Because once you, i guess, allow one thing and when I say allow I don't necessarily mean this consciously allow because, like you said, you weren't aware of it but once you kind of get past one thing that they do, then they're like, oh well, she's, i've got away with this, so let me see how much further I can push it. And slowly but surely it's expanding this circle of what's acceptable until you don't realize that actually all that behavior is not normal, that isn't acceptable. But because it's become your norm, it's really hard to spot it and, like you say, because they've tricked everybody on the outside, nobody on the outside can even come from a place of support, being like I don't think this is normal behavior, because to them they seem, like you say, this great guy giving you lots of love, you know having all these, you know doing everything that you want, and that's really difficult. So before we kind of go into more of the traits around how it can be, you know, linked to burnout.

Speaker 1: 32:46

I would just love to touch on for those listening as a friend, how can people potentially hold space to hear situations and maybe look out for red flags, rather than just being like, oh, that person's a great guy, because I think that's a really important thing to know about. But what does that look like from your experience? how would have a friend helped you in those situations, rather than potentially brushing off of, oh they're great, what are you talking about? like, how would you? would you go about that? do you think?

Speaker 2: 33:23

Yeah, i mean, first of all, there is definitely stuff that I could have done. I was outsourcing my power and I needed somebody to tell me it was okay for me to leave him. You know, that's really how I felt about it. But the experiences that I had when I spoke to my friends, like you say, they were, like you know why, would want to leave.

Speaker 2: 33:39

He's a great guy, like, but also going beyond that and saying things to me that made me feel like I was a really shit person. Like you know, they would say, well, it's no wonder he doesn't want to sleep with you because you emasculate him, you don't give him space to disagree with you, you do all this stuff, you demand so much from him that I thought, wow, i'm a real shit person, like, no wonder our relationship is rocky. It's all of it's all my fault and that kept me there. Because I'm thinking it's my fault, i need to fix it and if I show up better, if I can be a better partner, then I can be lovable, then our relationship can work. Yeah, and actually, you know, now I very much move from the space of my own intuition because, yeah, i saw a lot of the red flags in that relationship.

Speaker 2: 34:25

But instead of being like, hmm, it's weird that he won't let me meet anyone of his friends, which people people listening might be like how did you not realize that was a red flag? I did, i saw it was a red flag. I said to people do you think this is weird? and they were saying, no, it's not. It's just because you know he's younger, his friends younger, he knows you won't want to hang out with them. It's good you get to hang out with your friends. While you're complaining and I'm like, yeah, okay, fair enough why am I looking?

Speaker 2: 34:50

for faults in this great person yeah, yeah yeah, and I get it good that they were unintentionally gaslighting me to stay in that situation, but they were as conned as I was there's. You know I don't hold a grudge about that stuff. They moved with the information that they had at the time. But now, if someone came to me and they were talking about their relationship, you know, first of all remember that no one knows what a relationship is like truly unless they're in it, and even then they don't know. You know, i was in that relationship, i didn't have a clue.

Speaker 2: 35:25

So trying not to just reflect your experiences onto someone else's situation for a start and just hold space, like let someone talk, and you know, remembering that actually, however somebody experiences something, whether you agree with it or not, is valid. You know, like I say, we're all showing up with our own traumas, we're all showing up in our own experiences and how we feel and interpret that experience is valid. Yes, you can talk around that situation and, you know, sometimes you realize you're acting from a place of intuition and that there is something deeper there. Sometimes you're acting from a place where you're really triggered because of some other trauma that you have and you are ending up bleeding on people that didn't cut you because you're not healed. And then you know there's a difference, but you're not going to know that difference until you have space to explore that yeah, and I think what kind of stands out to me is as a friend or somebody offering support for a relationship.

Speaker 1: 36:31

I think rather yes, even if this person is a great guy or girl or whatever situation you find yourself in, if your friend is coming to you saying I don't think I want to be in a relationship.

Speaker 1: 36:44

I think, regardless of what you think about that, saying that isn't really helpful, because normally there's a reason why somebody, even if they can't put it into words intuitively without them realizing, know that maybe that situation isn't good. And even if it's not to do with narcissism, they could be a really great person in real life and there's nothing wrong with them. But it's just not right for the person in the relationship. You still need to be able to hold space for them to allow that and I think that's one of the probably key things is, rather than trying to justify somebody else's relate, why somebody else should be in a relationship if they've come to you as a friend, just holding the space to be like, well, what doesn't feel right for you and let them explain it and see. And sometimes they probably and I know that for me, if I was explaining my relationship and I wanted to get out of sometimes when you hear yourself say something out loud- it clicks for you.

Speaker 1: 37:38

It's like you give yourself your own answer just by having somebody else holding that space for you. Not necessarily their opinion, and that's what I try to do with my friends, not just with this, but anything. Now is do you want my input, an opinion, or do you just want me to listen?

Speaker 1: 37:52

because sometimes people just want you to listen and sometimes they do want your advice, and so I'll listen to what they present me and I'll say well, based on this, i think in my experience, this, this and this, or I can see this, this and this, but if they just say, look, i just need to like then, then, then then, and that's what I think important, important thing to do. So, if you're not sure, just allow somebody to share their experience without having to have an input, and that for me, was really hard, because I learned that as I've grown up, because I would always I would be like you very much.

Speaker 1: 38:28

I want to help someone, i want to make it better, i want to do what I can and.

Speaker 1: 38:33

I don't. I don't want somebody always putting their opinion on me, so why am I doing that to someone else? and I was like shit, i've been doing it in unintentionally, you know, and you know luckily, no harm done to any friend thing. But I was like damn. Now I know that that's a real big like and that was something that I learned that I had to change. In friendships and things like that is let me ask first, let me see if they want they just want support, and I think that would be important. But I'm curious given the situation that you were in and given some of these potential characteristics that made you more vulnerable to hit, being targeted by narcissists, do you think, potentially as well, that could have expanded into some of your friendships whereby you had friendships that were maybe a little bit toxic because you didn't have the right balance and you know, you weren't aware of maybe the friendships you created.

Speaker 1: 39:27

Were they, were they potentially not built on good foundations as well in some instances. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 39:34

And that's the thing when you realize this. Well, in me, realizing this stuff about myself and and now I'm kind of starting from. I feel like I've had a death and a rebirth and I'm starting with a completely different lens on life and and now, and I think about friendships I've had before and how I feel about people. I'm like, actually I'm gonna start making my opinion on that from now with this new information that I have. But I love what you said and what a beautiful boundary for you to have in place, because sometimes people think boundaries are for other people. They're actually for you.

Speaker 2: 40:04

And if you have a boundary that says you know what, if someone comes to me and they are asking me or saying that they have this problem, my boundary is I'm not just gonna jump in and give them advice and try to fix and try to heal. I'm gonna ask them you know how? do you like to be supported on this? do you want soundboard? you want some advice? like how can I support you? and and I think that is way more kinder to be like you know what. I trust you. You've got this. If you want my help, i'm here, but I know you can do this on your own. I think that is so much more of an empowering step to to to take. But yeah, so the complete lack of boundaries, that I had boundaries wasn't even something I'd ever considered. I didn't know why I needed them. I wouldn't even know where to start on what boundaries I would put in place And as somebody who grew up as a self-abandoning codependent, you know, for me the idea of setting a boundary feels mean.

Speaker 2: 41:03

It almost feels like I'm, you know, putting up this really severe like wall of armor around myself so no one can get near me. I can't help anyone. I don't have to be kind Like I have to be, you know, almost horrible to people, and it's really not that at all. Boundaries are the distance where you can love yourself and you can love other people simultaneously. It's powerful having boundaries. And yeah, like you say, reflecting on friendships, friendships without boundaries, no, not the vibe I'm not realising that some of those were not good friendships at all.

Speaker 1: 41:39

Yeah, yeah, and that's a lot, because that, as you said, this whole situation was an unraveling not just of an intimate relationship, it was an unraveling of what was your whole life, your whole reality, and that level of cognitive dissonance not intentionally is disorientating, to say the least, and having to go through the healing journey afterwards which is ongoing for you This is a very recent event, so this is talking from very close personal experience. It wasn't years ago, this is the now is. You know, it's really difficult, and so what I'd love to dive into now is just how, on reflection on your healing journey after this situation, did you start realising Oh, this is why I was getting burned out as well, because we spoke about this on a podcast episode whereby you'd quit your job as a lawyer because you were burnt out and you'd started introducing these new tools, and those tools that we share and we talk about are still very helpful and still very valid, but how has your opinion and your personal experience changed on burnout And what does that look like now?

Speaker 2: 42:45

100% And I think you know, like I say, that the tools that we shared on the last podcast are great tools to use to help you when you're either stressed out or you're burnt out or you're overwhelmed. They can really help to ground you, bringing back to the moment. But those tools are not going to go back to the root cause of why you're burning out and heal that and stop the cycle. They're good to manage it until the next time, until the next time, until the next time. And this is the thing, this course on burnout. I've wanted to bring it out for ages but I think in I don't know how to stop this from happening. I know how to slap a bandaid on it and make you feel better and make you you know, make your nervous system feel happier about the situation. Well, i don't know how to stop it. And then, through this experience, you know realizing, actually, about the abuse I sustained and the things that opened me up to that And you know we've talked about co-dependency already. I'll talk about some other things in a moment But I thought those are all areas where I was completely open to taking on a ton more stress, to feeling such a higher level of personal responsibility that got me to places of overwhelm and burnout That actually, these are things that I can really share with people learning more as well.

Speaker 2: 44:03

About childhood trauma, i want to say that we have, you know, big tea and small tea trauma. So even if you went through childhood and you're like, yeah, i don't think I was ever like sexually abused, so I'm fine, my childhood was great, and you know, i'm someone who would have reflected on my childhood and said, yeah, it was great, i had no problems. There's no trauma there. There is There's too much to cover that in a podcast today.

Speaker 2: 44:26

But understanding my childhood traumas that led me to becoming somebody who was a high functioning codependent with no boundaries, someone who was a people pleaser and totally abandoned all of my emotional needs to make sure that everyone else around me was happy. You know, working out why I was doing those things to healing those wounds, so that that is not how I'm showing up anymore. Yeah, and because I'm showing up differently, because I have boundaries, because I know now what is my side of the street, what I'm prepared to take on responsibility and what is someone else's side of the street, and I have a boundary there so that I'm not running over across the street all the time to save everything while my street's on fire. Now I know the difference. I am moving so differently. I'm still, you know, in this course.

Speaker 2: 45:21

I say let me show you how to be a high achiever without the hustle, because it is possible And often people, like I say, are so distracted by this subconscious mind and they don't go in as deep that they're being guided by these things that, you know, if you're an internalizer, you think, oh my God, what can I do? What have I done? What is this all my fault for? You know, all of this responsibility is mine. If you're an externalizer, you'll be like oh, you know, it's because of this client, it's because of this project, it's because of this stuff, But you won't look into the deeper layers because everything feels like an emergency. It's what is the quickest thing I can put my attention to. Oh, it's probably that. That's the reason.

Speaker 2: 46:02

And actually, you know, my course coming up Burnout to Breakthrough is around education, finding out those wounds that have created these burnout responses, education and then healing and then integration, because this stuff takes time. You can't suddenly do an hour session on boundaries and then be like, great, I'm a boundary boss, now I've got all my boundaries in place. I know exactly what I'm doing with this. Oh, first of all, that would feel completely inauthentic. Second of all, it takes practice.

Speaker 1: 46:34

Yeah, you've got to integrate it.

Speaker 2: 46:37

Yeah, and when you first show up with boundaries, other people are not going to like it. And this comes back to what you were saying about friendships, because in the way that I have changed and now I show up with boundaries and some friends, they didn't like that. They much preferred the version of me that was easy to take advantage of, the version of me that would pay for everything, because I feel uncomfortable if someone's card gets declined or whatever. I'm like, oh, just let me pay, it's fine. I'm not that person anymore And you know, i'm not the sort of person who is going to allow someone to just come to me emotionally, dump on me time after time after time, especially if I don't have the capacity for it. And I'll be honest with that because, again, these boundaries are for you. You have to say I'm sorry for what you're going through, but I don't have the capacity to hear this right now. And that's okay. Your know does not need an explanation.

Speaker 2: 47:33

And I think complete sentence.

Speaker 1: 47:35

Yeah, and I think what's really important that you mentioned as well is like when you talked about running across the road to put out fires, but you had a fire get burning yourself. That can often be an avoidance of wanting to deal with what's going on with you internally and those wounds, and maybe because the work is, the work can be hard, the work can be heavy, and so it's easier to distract yourself with what everyone everyone else is doing and what's happening with everyone else and how you can help everyone else, rather than looking at yourself and thinking I need to do this or I need to work on this, or actually this is really triggering me in my life And that these patterns keep happening over and over again. And I think that is the part that a lot of people are avoiding, because it isn't easy And there isn't always the support to work on it. Sometimes doing it yourself can be difficult. It obviously can be done yourself.

Speaker 1: 48:26

But, it's a lot harder because you haven't got someone to necessarily mirror or help you delve into those with the tools and the, the insights that maybe you would get there, but it would take you a lot longer And it would be a lot more difficult than having that support of somebody else And I think as well, boundaries is so powerful But, like you mentioned, people who were benefiting from you without boundaries disappear or don't like you because all of a sudden they're not benefiting. And that's one of the things that I think people struggle with, because when somebody comes along, once you've set a boundary and then they they retort or they come back with well, you didn't used to do this or why is it a problem? or this, that is, a somebody who's already a people pleaser, somebody who's already someone who wants to make sure everyone else is okay. Receiving that kind of feedback or that kind of information is like in your body is like oh I, how can I stick through this?

Speaker 1: 49:23

And it's almost the temptation to revert back to being like Oh, don't worry about it, it's fine. And it's that the the continuation of basically abandoning yourself and your needs is what basically continues this cycle, and I think that is the part that is where the work lies. You need to start learning how to build that trust within yourself, like you say, following your intuition, healing those wounds that need healing. And that's a journey And that's not easy.

Speaker 2: 49:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:54

Whatever, But what would you kind of for people listening? what would be your key takeaways? right now, If you think somebody is listening to this and thinking you know, actually I can see a lot of this in my relationship or my friendships How would, what tools or what advice would you give them as a starting point, just to be able to take stock of a situation, Because I don't like to just share all this information to then not be able to give people somewhere to start so that they can at least do something with the information. Right, Yeah?

Speaker 2: 50:28

absolutely. And I mean the thing is, when you often, when people go through something like this and they have this realization, they will go into a bit of a whole of like education, education, education. they read all the self health books But, like you say, and it's well, how do I apply this authentically to my life? And you can't go from, you know, zero to hero or whatever, without some integration time, without making some mistakes, like relapse really is part of recovery.

Speaker 2: 50:56

I think is one of the like sort of AA phrases, but it's, you know, even recovering from people pleasing or recovering from being boundaryless, at some point you're gonna, like you say, feel uncomfortable or feel drawn to do those things and be like, oh, i fucked up there, but it's okay because you're conscious of it And you have that consciousness before, like, don't give yourself such a hard time. That everything needs to be perfect, it's not. But what I think is going to be so powerful about this course is the community aspect of it.

Speaker 2: 51:27

I'm limiting it to 12 women, but these 12 women are going to be showing up and hey, they're all boundaryless people. Please is, to begin with, they're all integrating and applying this stuff in real time to real situations And I want to share that. I don't want to just be like here's how you do it, off you go. Guys, we've got two calls a week and one of them is going to be about how they're integrating this stuff in real life, and mistakes are welcome because we can all learn from each other on this journey. So, whether you find your community in my space or whether you find your community in other spaces, there'll be a pocket of the internet or a pocket of your outside community that can support you. You know we all feel like we do this very unique journey in life, but actually there are. You know, we're so much more connected than we think And there'll be people out there who are on an extremely similar journey to me or have been on that journey, who I'm like. Oh yeah, i actually can relate to a lot of this stuff. That doesn't mean that you have to do all of the research on yourself And actually being this kind of person with these kind of trauma responses, you feel very much like you're not entitled to ask for help, or at least that you need to really push yourself way beyond towards the finish line before you can ask someone to help you, and that can result in it taking you way longer.

Speaker 2: 52:50

But also you're kind of running around in the dark looking for answers, trying to get yourself to an end line that you don't know where it is. If you can find someone that you trust, that has done that journey, that is like Hey, come along with me, i know the way. Now Let me show you and do that from a place that is compassionate, respectful and loving of yourself along the way. That is powerful, knowing that you are worth healing, that you are worth having being able to receive support and that you're worth going through life and being able to fucking enjoy it. It doesn't have to be this suffer and struggle to drag yourself through to eventually get to some earned reward. You can actually move with ease and flow and it's a way more enjoyable experience.

Speaker 2: 53:37

And if you'd have told me that back when I was a lawyer, i'd have been like no chance. There's absolutely no way that I can excel in my job and enjoy it at the same time. No, that's not possible, but it is. It really really can be. This course is not about me saying everyone just quit your job and go live on a beach in Bali, you'll be really happy. This is about teaching you to do the things that you want to do, to be high achievers, to do the things that light you up, but also to do it with passion, with purpose, and to make sure that your needs are getting met. If you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh, not me, i don't have any emotional needs, you're the one who fucking needs this. I'm talking to you, yeah 100%.

Speaker 1: 54:22

And that's the thing often, when that moment where you're like, oh, that's not me, i don't need that, not all the time, but a lot of the time can actually be, oh, actually you're just trying to avoid because that is definitely you and you relate and you're trying to deny that you relate And so, yeah, i think that's really helpful.

Speaker 1: 54:39

So I know we've covered quite a lot and this conversation could go so much deeper, but it's such a complex topic There's not one episode that can just encapsulate it all. As I've mentioned, there is your vlog, where it's an hour and a half long. It goes into a lot more in depth, so if somebody wants to go and check that out a little bit more obviously, it can connect with you. Is there any final things that you wanted to touch upon that we maybe haven't covered? that you think's important?

Speaker 2: 55:05

Yeah. So I mean yeah, absolutely watch the vlog. If COVID-19 is something, even if it doesn't directly relate to you, but become aware of it because I promise you it's showing up in the people around you and their lives way more than you think it is, And don't be afraid to explore things like in a child healing. Sometimes people feel resistant to that because they think that means, oh, my parents were dreadful, and actually I don't want to say that about them, because they were great. I had a good childhood. I shouldn't be ungrateful for the experiences I had as a child.

Speaker 2: 55:39

It's not about that. It's about again realising that there is no such thing as a perfect and complete human living life and doing everything right. We are all flawed in some ways. We are all showing up to the table with some amount of trauma And your parents did the best that they knew how to do at the time.

Speaker 2: 55:59

But it is your responsibility to heal the things that they didn't heal, because trauma passes down generation, generation, generation. You're hanging on to stuff that you don't even know is there, And one of the services that I offer transformational breath work is a really powerful way to shift some of that stuff. People come to those breath work journeys and say that they saw a load of past life experiences or they understood and even visualise or intuitively felt generational trauma from their parents, their parents, their parents and released it. And how powerful is that? But once you do the healing, you move different, You are different and you create a better reality. So don't deny yourself the medicine of the work that you could be receiving, because in some way you feel like you are not worthy.

Speaker 1: 56:54

Yeah, yeah, i love that And I think that's such a powerful way to end for people. And, obviously, if people wanted to get into your world or connect with you or find out more about the course that you're just launching, how can they do that?

Speaker 2: 57:09

Yeah, So on Instagram I am at ConnectedKaty. That's K-A-T-I-E. In the link in my bio you can find the links for burnout to breakthrough. There's an early bird offer which finishes on the 30th of June, And there is also a link there to find out more about my transformational breath work and my one-on-one life coaching services and more about my app memberships, which. There are different levels of app membership depending on your budget and depending on your needs, And if you are not sure where to start or you have a small budget, I would definitely recommend starting with the app because, wherever you are on your journey, taking even 10 minutes of time for yourself is a really powerful way for you to tell your subconscious or for you to tell your inner child I am worthy of taking care of.

Speaker 2: 57:56

It's not just about the practice, it's about the message behind it. So, yeah, but always reach out to me. I honestly love to hear from people. If people drop me a message and say I listen to the podcast, I resonate with it. Thank you so much. That will really light up my day. I know sometimes people think that they shouldn't reach out to people or whatever, but those sort of messages really they're powerful and they are appreciated, So never feel like you can't get in touch.

Speaker 1: 58:21

Amazing, and I always end on one question at the end of the episode for my guests. And that is what is the one thing right now that is lighting you up, exciting you, whether that's a product, a material thing, something you're working on just to give people the inspiration.

Speaker 2: 58:39

One thing that I'm working on right now is integration a good answer to that. Whatever you're answering, Yeah, yeah, i think this is the thing. It's very easy to get caught into a cycle of healing, healing, healing That gets very heavy and that gets very deep. So the thing that I'm working on currently is, first of all, integrating all of this new stuff that I've learned showing up in friendships differently, showing up with family differently, but also, as part of that, integrating joy along the way.

Speaker 1: 59:15

Because, the healing is heavy.

Speaker 2: 59:16

You've got to be having fun as well.

Speaker 1: 59:18

Yeah, you've got to be really exciting after everything you've been through, because there is now. It doesn't mean your healing journey is over, but there's now light at the end of the tunnel whereby life is, life's joys can be received again and you are open to them, and that's a powerful healing tool in itself, which I think a lot of people overlook 100%.

Speaker 2: 59:41

I'm now in this state of ease and flow and pleasure and enjoyment, and living life in this way through this lens is just a completely different experience to what I've had for the last 30 odd years and it's beautiful. It's challenging, the things that I've been through, but where I'm at now and I know it's a journey, but I'm just enjoying this part of it in particular is wonderful, amazing.

Speaker 1: 1:00:10

Well, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation today. I can't wait to share it with everybody, and all the things that we've spoken about will be in the show notes if people want to find them.

Speaker 2: 1:00:21

Thank you so much for having me, hannah.